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-Listens to what he means when he is speaking -Pays attention to his nonverbal cues about his emotional state -Respects his boundaries and only assists him in expanding them, not demanding he do so -Rewards him for engaging in new healthy behaviours that he finds uncomfortable
Fellas, is it being an asshole for checks notes engaging with your partner?
Yeah, this person isn’t disrespectfully treating a human as they would a dog, they’re just respectfully treating dogs as they would a human.
We can’t get a dog’s consent to engage in experiments. Continuing with this method after realizing and not talking with him about it would be intentionally ignoring consent.
It’s not an experiment to react to someone’s fear and trauma with kindness, even if you learned those skills through helping rehabilitate dogs. She’s not doing this to try to figure out how he reacts to the stimulus of M&Ms under certain conditions, she’s giving him candy when he’s stressed because she knows it helps him calm down. That’s just being a caring and attentive girlfriend.
Being caring also involves including their consent in the process. Idk, I’d be really upset by my partner knowingly doing this without talking to me about it. But then again I guess it could depend how they react if I found out before they just admit to it. Like if they got defensive and didn’t understand why I’m upset. I’m not saying the whole thing is horrible, just hiding it.
Also depends on the person and their values, I guess. If you value someone doing that kind of emotional labor for you without you having to think about it. I’m very much used to doing the emotional labor in relationships.
Damn. I just realized maybe I’m displacing here though cuz I’m a bit jealous they’re using a method that works, whereas I’m single for a plethora of reasons.
That’s fair. If you’re used to not receiving emotional attention, then suddenly receiving it might be something so novel that you need to give it your blessing before accepting it. The relationships I’ve been in have generally defaulted for both parties to a sense of “I’m going to do what I think is best for you, so let me know if I’m ever wrong,” rather than “Can I do this thing for you? Ok, good. How about this one?” But I’ve been lucky to have mutually caring relationships.
If this person has gotten used to people not having their best interests in mind, then maybe even their partner’s good intentions need to be given consent just to show them that people can have good intentions. I do worry that, by being told what’s happening, he’d associate candy with being stressed and get defensive whenever offered candy, but hopefully she’s been doing it long enough to at least show him that it’s an effective de-stressor coming from a place of love rather than manipulation.
I hope you find someone who cares for you as well. It took me a lot of time and effort to put myself out there before I found my wife, but I’m really glad I did.
I mean this simply gets into the ethics of manipulation. Ultimately, it comes down to choosing happiness.
It’s odd, sweet, I think. She’s doing her best in the way she knows best
Has hammer, sees only nails.
Hey if it works out works. She is an asshole for not using proper grammar and punctuation though.
The biggest thing for me is that she’s eroding his emotional sovereignty. She’s taking covert actions to modulate and decide his mood for him.
Sometimes, when I’m feeling down, I just want to feel that and get through on my own. But she’s deciding which of his moods isn’t appropriate and is changing his behaviour. If this were out in the open, he would be able to accept or refuse her attempts to cheer him up or divert him. But he (presumably) doesn’t even know it’s happening. That’s not cool.
It sounds fine because it’s worded like she’s helping him but she’s still taking away his autonomy. Just bring it out in the open: “hey, I’ve noticed, when you’re sad or stressed, peanut M&Ms cheer you up. Would you like me to keep some on-hand?” With that, you’ve alerted them to behaviours about themself and got their consent to “help” them.
If that’s the timbre of their interactions, I’ve got no qualms. But setting the context as “I train abused dogs” brings the mental image to one step above “hiding medicine in a dog treat.”
The way she contextualises it is a bit odd, but the actual thing isn’t that bad. It’s just accommodating him, being aware of his particulars, and helping him over his issues. The gift of a single M&M is unusual, but giving your partner something nice isn’t strange. People do similar things all the time in relationships, it’s just not thought of as training.
Biggest issue is her framing it that way, because people might either get the wrong idea, or give the wrong idea. Saying she’s training him like a dog gives the idea of a lead, like with an actual dog.
Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of people react like the treats are indignifying, as if positive and negative reinforcement only happen in a lab or something.
Yeah, the single m&m is a little weird but how is it really different than seeing someone in a bag mood and telling them a joke or something to lift their spirits?
Pretty sure it’s the lack of consent of the intent that is undignified. Just like many woman prefer to not have their date pay for their meal because it sets the implication that they have to pay via other ways and they didn’t consent to this.
Okay, I asked somebody else, maybe you can help.
Consent to what? What is he supposed to be consenting to? That she thinks thoughts in her head? M&M’s are not actually magic, he does not have to be any happier if he doesn’t want to.
Like, let’s look at another act of subtle coercion: the advertising industry. An ad agency’s entire job is to either directly or indirectly prime and condition you into believing certain things about whatever it is they’re selling.
Maybe they want you to believe it’s a good product. Maybe they want you to believe that Apple is “clean” and “cool” and “for creatives.” Maybe they want you to believe that protesters are crazed lunatics throwing firebombs and flipping cars all the time.
And, while this is deliberate manipulation, I’ve never heard anybody talk about how they didn’t consent to it. If a salesman is trying to coerce you into something, your consent is the contract you sign.
And likewise, I don’t see how this guy isn’t consenting to M&M’s making him happier when they either did or did not do that in the first place.
My main issue with this is that the way we train dogs is that we train them to be dependant on us. So yeah, she’s training him to come out of his shell, maybe, but if it works the same way a dog does he’ll only be loyal and listen to her. Especially because anyone else he meets won’t treat him like a dog and will expect him to behave like a person without the expectation of rewards which would probably make him more adverse to others
Of course, he’s a human being too so it won’t go down exactly like that. I’m just saying that from the very first premise the way we train dogs is by training them to be codependant
Well, once he opens up she can train him to be more independent. But first he needs the security and wiggle room.
Its not the best approach, but in the mental world you take what you can get.
That’s kind of my point. What part of our whole understanding of how to train dogs involves training them to be more independent? I don’t really think there is any. At best you can point to like dog socialization training, but I don’t think that makes them more independent, that’s just training them to be social when their owners are around.
Yeah but this guy doesn’t currently need independence, he needs safety. Independence isn’t gonna give it to him - if anything, it’s making him feel exposed and unsafe.
It’s like kids, they need to be cared for while they learn how to handle themselves. Slowly, you let them go and eventually they spread their wings and fly off. But until then, they’re vulnerable, weak, and highly dependent. Doesn’t make them any less, they just have other priorities.
This is literally how I want to be treated.
Someone wouldn’t like watching House M.D. if this is making them feel immoral.
House Trains His Protégé | House M.D…
(if you don’t want to see the whole thing here’s s timestamp for the more relevant portion)
That’s just basic psychology more or less. These are just the thoughts you shouldn’t say ouloud perhaps. You can often compare things because there’s similarities, but the nature of the things being compared may make it offensive.
It’s more like “training dogs has given me an understanding of basic psychology which came really handy in my relationships” than “I’m training my bf like a dog”.
This is probably a me thing, but if I were to catch on to someone doing this I might start wondering at some hidden intent behind everything they do
This. ^
Most of the time, you can’t tell the persons intentions from that position. I hope for the guy’s sake the woman is genuine about helping him. Though her method is fucked.
I mean, it doesn’t say that she forces him to eat it from her hand or anything.
Even if the intent is good it is still manipulation without consent.
That’s true yeah. Yeah the more I think about the situation, the nastier it gets. The training could mess someone up.
Someone who always has a snack for me if I’m feeling down?? Sign me the fuck up!
sounds like they treat their partner better than most people do, honestly.
Honestly if we treated each other as well as we treated dogs we’d already be in paradise.
How close would that be to slavery?
People forget that humans are just animals (that can sometimes reason and talk). I still stand that dog training guides make better parenting books than many parenting books. At least up till around 3 years old.
The extension of this to adults is more challenging. Intent matters. This could be used abusively VERY easily. That is not happening here, however. With great power, comes great responsibility.
It’s also worth noting that, if you use this, plan out how you will explain it later. A panicked, “oh shit, (s)he caught on!” will look bad, no matter what. A calm, thoughtful, positive explanation, delivered with confidence will likely get a lot more acceptance.
A: “Ok, what’s with the M&Ms?”
B: “You’ve noticed then. :)”
A: “…”
B: “I noticed chocolate made you happy. I also noticed you were trying to overcome some negative habits. I decided to help. Whenever you put effort in, I rewarded it with a bit of chocolate. It makes you happy, and helps you lock a good habit in better.”
A: “… You’ve been conditioning me?!?”
B: “Yes, don’t you like the improvement?”
A “… yes, but I’m not sure I should…”
B: “M&M?”
Just squirt him with the water bottle if he starts asking questions like this.
Negative reinforcement should be HIGHLY limited. It can cause unforeseen knock on effects. Any negative reinforcement should be highly targeted, without triggering a fight or flight response. It should also be accompanied by clear instructions for how to correct it. This applies to both humans and pets.
It’s quite likely that most of the negative traits in the OP were caused by an attempt at negative reinforcement.
You could also be even more cautious: “I noticed that they cheer you up, so I try to have them on hand for when you’re feeling down.” No mention of conditioning, wholesome, hard to argue against.
We constantly condition each other all the time. It’s a part of human interaction. We don’t usually do it consciously, but it’s conditioning nonetheless. Couples will subtly condition their behavior to be more in tune with each other.
Consider a simple example. Imagine a you’re in a couple, and you just moved in together. You’re both used to living alone. You’re used to flicking on the bedroom light as you walk into the bedroom before bed to prepare for bed. Unfortunately your partner tends to go to sleep before you. You wake them up a few times by accident, and they understandably grumble. You feel bad about it, as you care about them and don’t want to wake them up. You wince the next day when you see how tired they seem. In time, you stop flicking the light on before you enter the room. Your partner’s actions have conditioned you to not turn the light on. Your partner conditioned you without even intending to. We condition each other constantly. We observe what effect our behavior has on others, and we adjust our own behavior accordingly. We usually just don’t refer to it as “conditioning,” as that tends to have a nefarious connotation.
It also hides the conditioning aspect. We hide things when we consider them negative. If they are asking, they have potentially noticed a lot more. If you hide it, you believe it was a bad thing you were doing, and they will react VERY strongly to you doing it.
By being upfront it will derail their train of thought on the matter. I personally used this a few times in my youth. It pulls the teeth of an argument quickly.
Here it is basically acknowledging what you have been doing, while defusing the various “ah ha!” reveals and got-yas they had mentally planned. At that point they have to actually think, rather than just react according to the script they built in their head. Once they are thinking, it’s a lot easier to communicate properly.
I’m very much a “direct communication” kinda person but even I know that timing is important. True it took learning it and that was certainly an experience but it happened.
If the person is feeling vulnerable and a little worried you’re manipulating them and you dive straight in with a scientific, emotionless reduction of “choco make boyo happy” then you’ll probably scare them. You’re excited about this thing and have had a lot of time to explore it but they haven’t had such time to be more comfortable with that kind of wording. You don’t want to derail their argument, that really only protects you and actually puts you back in hiding a negative aspect and that person now feels possibly even more confused and angry. They were probably hoping that it was just a mistake or that you were being nice, which you probably were, and now you’ve taken their “best case scenario” and told them straight-faced that you were consciously manipulating them.
After they feel better, after they’ve had some time to sit with it, sure maybe, but in the moment it’s good to soften it a little.
Insert “it should’ve been me” meme here.
