Ah its nice to see lemmy grow. Now we can have fedderated senseless screaming matches just like the big social networks.
For all the orientalists below:
If that’ supposed to be funny, I don’t get it.
The meme assumes the Western context. We don’t trust the US government because of the centuries of violence and exploitation. We had to go looking for that information because it is minimized and buried at every turn by the compliant national media.
On the other hand, the supposed abuses of the Chinese government are loudly broadcast at every turn. You’ll find if you go looking outside of Western sanctioned sources that all of those criticisms are absurd fabrications.
Therefore, someone in the western context who says they don’t trust the US or China is trusting the US media for information about China but not about the US itself. Does that help?
Yeah, I think it does. But I still don’t get it why the man in the third image is with nearly closed eyes. Is he answering the question by mimicing a Chinese face, meaning China told him not to trust what China says?
I’m a little confused because the comic only has two panels? Additionally, in the second panel the character’s eyes are still round not any other shape - I don’t see squinting at all? (If you were trying to draw a head that small with eyes that were squinting, you would use angled lines, not circles)
In any case, I believe the interpretation of the comic intended by the creator is: “Panel one represents what Western liberals say about China. Panel 2 represents the media environment they swim in”
If you see only 2 parts of the image, that means your ISP sucks and it doesn’t load the entire image.
China bad. US bad. Russia bad.
All three can be true at the same time. (And they are)
Exactly. That is what bothers me about most anti Americans here in Europe. The US absolutely did many terrible things, but that does not automatically mean that the Russians are the good ones. They did many terrible things too.
Historically, Western Europe has been just as bad as the US, especially France, Germany, and the UK. Russia hasn’t been as bad historically, especially not when they were Socialist, when they were inarguably one of the most progressive countries in the world.
I’m talking about the time post world war two. And if you are telling me that the soviet occupations and invasions weren’t horrific, I can’t help you
The period where the Soviet Union supported Cuba, Palestine, Algeria, Vietnam, China, and countless other liberatory struggles? Where the Soviets sent the first human to space before the US? Where the hard effort in building up an industrialized society was beginning to pay off greatly despite the devastation suffered during World War II?
Yes, the Soviet Union was far more progressive than the US and Western Europe in that period, where the western countries were busy committing genocide, colonialism, imperialism, and more. I don’t need your “help” if your worldview fundamentally rests on excusing genocide and twisting a country that aided in the liberation of many countries as worse than that, somehow.
“The US is bad, but I believe everything it says about its enemies without question”
It doesn’t matter who said it. There isn’t a company or a government that is your “friend”. They’re all out to squeeze you
You should probably stop unquestionably believing everything the US says about its enemies then
Don’t forget, most of the countries in Europe bad also. Oh, and Japan very bad at times.
Maybe humans bad?
Bold of you to assume I am American, did you not check the instance I am from ?
Yes, there are many lies about China, but don’t get stuck in second opinion syndrome. China is both worse and better than you know.
The fact the government lies about China, while China is still bad behind the scenes, can both be true. During the cold war, both sides accused the other of being evil, and both were right.
Don’t let anyone who puts a “communist” sticker on their own forehead fool you into supporting them.
The fact the government lies about China, while China is still bad behind the scenes, can both be true.
This is just vague-posting unless you actually link some credible china-bad studies that aren’t sourced from British or US state media.
some credible china-bad studies that aren’t sourced from British or US state media.
University of Limpopo, South Africa, on China neocolonising Africa - https://www.jstor.org/stable/27159668. Is that credible enough for you?
If not, is there a source that you would call credible - and if it exists, what is it?
Note: I hope I don’t come as aggressive, I was trying to be succinct.
I can’t read that as it’s paywalled. Anyway here’s a lot of links about this topic, several from African leaders and diplomats on the difference between Chinese trade and development in Africa and actual imperialism as practiced by western countries:
- Debunking the claim that “China is Imperialist”
- The demeanor of Chinese leaders (Xi Jinping) vs Western leaders (Nancy Pelosi) towards African nations. One of the reasons why African nations favor China instead of the West. Full video here
- An African leader on the hypocrisy of those saying China is imperialist.
- China africa panel: if you want actual infrastructure, you go to China, not the west.
- Is China really imperialist? What’s the difference between what Europe did to Africa, and what China is doing?
- Five imperialist myths about China’s role in Africa.
- Evo Morales - Why China and Russia aren’t imperialist, but the US is.
- US air force veteran Bill Brown breaks down the history of anti-chinese propaganda, and why China is not colonialist like the west.
- Yanis Varoufakis on China’s foreign policy dealings with Greece and Africa.
- Vijay Prashad and Qiao Collective - Is China imperializing Africa?
- Danny Haiphong from BlackAgenaReport interview with Anya Parampil from thegrayzone: on the new cold war, and a myriad of lies about China.
- The Belt and Road Initiative: the antithesis of Colonialism.
- The war on China : and geopolitical significance of the belt and road initiative.
- China has forgiven over $10B in debt, over half to Cuba, but also including > 20 African nations, Pakistan, and Cambodia.
- After covid, China suspends debt repayment for 77 countries, promises > $2B USD and medical supplies as aid to help developing countries fight covid.
- President Xi pledges coronavirus vaccine to Africa first, helps fund African CDC headquarters.
- The chinese debt trap is a myth.
- China writes off $6M in debt to rwanda, provides another $60M in grants.
- China forgives over $78M in Cameroon debt.
- China writes off $36m Mozambican debt.
- China writes off substantial amount of Angola debt.
- After a group of Guangdong landlords evicted a group of Africans, the CPC arrested them, apologized to the African Union, paid for hotels for the migrants, passed a series of anti-discrimination laws, and spent weeks going to all the restaurants, landlords, and taxis to warn them of the law.
- Nato’s new enemy: the CPC.
- The western media’s China hysteria.
It’s not paywalled. I think you didn’t even bother to click “read full article” or whatever the button name is. They might ask you to register witb a free account.
If you want to use other people opinions as an argument, I’m going to ask you for what you asked for - studies. Preferably published in journals, not essays by socials celebrities like Caitlin Johnstone, nor articles in Chinese newspapers, nor Reddit. And that’s because a deluge of weak sources is worthless - that’s how US propaganda works and enforces itself.
Extra points if the studies are not from China or it’s close Allies, just so that you have exactly the same requirements as the ones you asked for.
Can be paywalled.
Edit: I highly recommend you read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
Edit: I highly recommend you read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
It’s crazy how Wikipedia has becomes essentially the Holy Scripture of liberals.
Bro brought the receipts.💀
Something like a one-party political system with dear respected leader, concentration camps, surveillance, social rating system, GFW?
Note how I don’t say anything about propaganda from every crack. That’s because western propaganda has successfully evolved in the conditions of outright censorship not being allowed. Like killing cockroaches in a building again and again you make them evolve for the poisons used in the past.
If you are going to pick the “all this is not credible” line, then don’t bother. Also credible is a synonym for “believable”, and nobody can make you believe things you don’t want to believe.
The USA is a one party system in many ways so is the EU when it comes to imperialist and neoliberal policies every single party is on board doesn’t matter who you vote for.
This is why people won’t support lemmy lmao.
You know there are other sources for China’s ills than American news media right?
And those are?
Seriously, link these without sourcing Zenz or another US or British state media source.
Please person who only speaks English provide non-English source.
There isn’t a single piece of anti-China propaganda from the West that you don’t believe without question.
“Won’t support Lemmy” is a bit strong, but we should probably de-federate lemmy.ml
Why?
If only there were other countries that said bad things about China lol
wow this one rustled some jimmies
the west will never forgive China for liberating themselves, it is a dangerous precedent that should be chastised at all costs.
the wasp nest has really come out in the comments here 🤣
Usians don’t like being told that their stolen land nation started by slave owners who then held a “freedom revolution” so these oligarchs to have to pay taxes while tge rest of their population does, isn’t such a great place after all.
hah! you aint’ kiddin, focused on real-life stuff for a bit and came back to a 40+ inbox 😁 😆
Well done comrade
Everybody Sucks Here
Only the right-wing neolibs of world and their ilk, I find the users of ml and hexbear to be quite nice
It is nice to see the western propaganda machine start to fail. I never thought I’d see the general public recognize Israel is a genocidal settler apartheid state until the last couple years, even though the propaganda machine has been working overtime for it. Hopefully other areas in propaganda start to crumble as well.
Born to early to explore the cosmos, too late to explore the world, but just in time to see the fall of the US empire propaganda machine 😁
ingests ‘facts’ and narratives from seemingly different sources that just happen to be financially backed/owned by the same small group of people
no logical filtering or processing takes place before regurgitating them
“I’m a free thinker who does their own research!”
Meanwhile, the worlder preferred “bastions of journalism”:
I am sorry but since when is German left leaning public broadcast the same as fox news?! I understand that sometimes some topics are generally over- or underreported, but putting these next to each other is nonsensical.
public broadcast
Or, as we call it when it’s a non-white country: “State propaganda outlet”
ITT: people saying “the US and China both seem bad” and being told that they obviously just want to kiss America square on the lips because China has never done anything bad ever
Wasn’t the great leap forward by Mao the biggest mass murder in world history, according to historians not governments?
Doesn’t whitewashing that amount to Holocaust denial level cultural blindness?
I know nothing, quick Google search.
Do you understand the difference between causing a famine unintentionally and doing mass murder?
“Oops! I killed 15 million people, but it was an accident. My bad. Who knew forcibly moving all the farmers to the city and making them work in factories would cause a famine?”
-Mao, probably
PS: 15 million is the low end number. 15-55 million is the commonly accepted number, with some estimates as high as 70 million.
At some point you’d think he’d look around and notice.
So you think Mao decided starving his own people benefited him? Why?
I’m sorry, but why would that matter? We tend to judge people by their actions, not their intent, when it comes to mass deaths.
Right?
Right?
In short, no, that was cold war propaganda. These intro articles get into some of the details of the Mao era:
- Monster or Liberator? by Carlos Martinez
- How did Mao manage to kill ~78 million people? by Godfree Roberts
- The Long Game and Its Contradictions. Audiobook
- The Rise of the Chinese People’s Communes by Anna Louise Strong
I could find books that say the Nazis are great guys too. Doesn’t make it right.
Getting people to read even short articles is impossible.
Just be honest with yourself any say that you’re not looking to challenge your orientalist biases, that you just want things to confirm them.
The communists were the ones who defeated fascism in ww2, Mao being one of the most important leaders in that fight against japanese fascism. To equate Mao with nazis or the axis powers, who they shed so much blood to defeat, is sickening.
And you are impartial, saying someone you do not know has an “orientalist” bias. Throwing out pejorative words, linking to lengthy fringe arguments like a Trump supporter telling me to watch Hannity.
I see you’re defending your heroes by parsing words and cherry-picking books and news and rallying your arguments (and propaganda) to defend them. I expected nothing less from you; it’s exactly the same thing a Trump supporter would do.
Carry on, comrade. Enjoy yourself. You have the evangelistic fervor of a Baptist preacher.
I see you’re defending your heroes by parsing words and cherry-picking books and news and rallying your arguments (and propaganda) to defend them. I expected nothing less from you; it’s exactly the same thing a Trump supporter would do.
Meanwhile you do something a million times more honorable and simply refuse to confront new information, dismiss it all as propaganda, and say your opponent is equal to a Trump supporter (for what? for having principled stances that he backed up with multiple sources? How often do Trump supporters back up their claims with sources that aren’t PragerU videos or AI generated images?). You’re implying that Dessalines is being intellectually dishonest when he has done nothing incorrect in this conversation: he made a claim to counter your unsourced claim, cited his sources, and when you refused to learn anything at all he’s just calling you out for falling back on Western propaganda. Is any of that wrong?
The People’s Republic of China oversaw the largest increase of quality of life in human history, and the previously mentioned famine would be the last in a region where they have frequently occurred throughout history.
The PRC’s legacy is not one of causing famine, it is of ending it.
That’s a bold statement, what’s your source?
- Wikipedia: List of famines in China
- Reuters, 2018, China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data
- United Nations Secretary-General, 2019: Helping 800 Million People Escape Poverty Was Greatest Such Effort in History, Says Secretary-General, on Seventieth Anniversary of China’s Founding
- The Economist, 2021: At 54, China’s average retirement age is too low
- Bloomberg, 2024: China’s Energy Use Per Person Surpasses Europe’s for First Time
- Monster or Liberator? by Carlos Martinez
- How did Mao manage to kill ~78 million people? by Godfree Roberts
- The Long Game and Its Contradictions. Audiobook
- The Rise of the Chinese People’s Communes by Anna Louise Strong
This kind of post-truth nihilism is completely fruitless. If you dismiss evidence that contradicts your preconceived notions on the basis that evidence against other unrelated facts might also exist, then the only valid beliefs are the ones you already have. You’ve arrived at an epistemological position that rejects all new knowledge and positions all knowledge you already have as infallible.
Why not evaluate the claims and their evidence, instead of starting from the position that any defense of Mao is comparable to defending the Nazi Holocaust? Not to mention, if you did come across a group of Holocaust deniers, is this really the weak response you’d give them? Not even going to produce any evidence in support of your own claims?
