Now let’s have a control group with no supplements
Yes, please. I’d love to see that.
A control group on the juice would also be helpful.
More research isn’t a bad thing, but this really isn’t news. If you’re a nerd who’s into lifting you’d already know that soy protein is a top tier source of all the important amino acids for muscle gain. And it’s cheaper than whey.
It’s also not very popular because the manosphere tells men that consuming it will feminize them. Yes, really. They took the “soy boy” thing very literally and ran with it off the deep end.
I remember about a decade ago talking about tofu recipes with a colleague who lifted and ate a protein heavy diet.
An older colleague heard us and warned us that eating tofu would cause you to have a surplus of estrogen and make you more feminine.
He was telling this to a guy built like a brick shithouse who had eaten tons of soy protein for the better part of a decade.
It’s that same old thing, something different comes along and some people just have to parrot anything that goes against that thing, even if it’s complete and utter horseshit
As a human survival trait we need to find a way to shut down misinformation. Knowledge is our path to survival as an animal. Like ants have teamwork and building, wildebeest have speed, plants photosynthesise, humans learn.
By creating and spreading misinformation you’re chipping away at pretty much the only thing that keeps us in existence.
Bit of a broad-strokes extreme takeaway from your comment there, but it got to me.
I just left a thread about analog clocks being removed from schools because the kids can’t read them. The comments alone were quite telling on how many humans don’t want to learn much of anything anymore.
Misogyny is a helluva drug
Do they forget that estrogen is also a steroid?
Yes, yes they do. Or, more accurately, they didn’t know that in the first place. These people are often just running on what are essentially old wives’ tales of things to be afraid of because it will hurt their masculinity or something.
Ugh I had an older colleague, a PhD organic chemist, who was absolutely convinced that soy would make me (m) infertile. I ordered tofu once when out to lunch and he would not stop warning me to “be careful” and to be mindful of starting a family and “you know those studies.” When I mentioned that the consensus was at best inconclusive and most likely there is no such link, he said that no, “they” definitely showed that excess soy is bad and that he worried about my reproductive health. Like dude even if eating tofu did cause reproductive health issues, mine is none of your goddamn business. On the other hand, the same guy is also convinced that BPA (another estrogen mimic used esp. in certain plastics) concerns are a total hoax because “they did bad science because their sample containers had BPA in them and it leached into the urine samples giving false positive.” Also something about the only evidence of it binding like estrogen was that someone glanced at a crystal structure and halfassedly thought it looked like it might fit and rolled with it for career reasons. Like, I don’t know, man, maybe a couple studies used containers made with BPA, but most probably didn’t. I haven’t read them, but I know you didn’t, either. Also, you’re literally a petrochemist, you know BPA is mostly used in polycarbonates, and lab plastics, especially for analytical work, are mostly polypropylene or polyethylene designed to avoid exactly this kind of leaching. Honestly.
People continue parroting this soy estrogen myth even years after it’s been debunked too, it’s annoying as hell. The phytoestrogen in question is more of an anti-estrogen and may be protective against excess estrogen.
If soy actually caused boob growth, the supplement industry would be all over that.
bigger issue with these powders and shit (least in the US) is that damn near non-existent food/drug safety oversight means that your probably getting dosed with a bunch of lead or some other contaminate…
I’m a nerd and into lifting, but I took a pause for oh very many years, so I’m currently still emptying my 2.something kilogram tub of Optimum Nutrition whey protein, which tastes decent enough. Do you have a recommendation on decent tasting soy protein, especially something available in Europe?
I pretty much look like a bear so it’s going to be very difficult to feminize me lol
Meat and dairy contains hormones that increase estrogen and reduce testosterone, not plants.
also your plastic bottles, and people dump so much birth control into the water system too.
Microplastics is a hard one to study, I think it does have a detrimental effect on testosterone though.
That may be, I was just saying I’m not particularly concerned about it anyway.
Yeah I know, that’s why T levels in the USA has dropped by 20% in the last 20 years and obesity is rapidly increasing.
Pretty sure obesity is increasing because people are sedentary and eat like shit.
Testosterone is known to go down in obese people so I think you have your cause and effect reversed there.
obesity, the fat produces eostrogen compounds, thats why it also reduces pregnancy chances too,. thats why its not safe for obese people to be pregnant.
I recently decided to restart my routine after 8+ years of dickin’ around and this is blowing my mind right now. What else has changed? Is creatine and NO2 still a thing?
Creatine is still very much a thing, but I think everyone actually knows what it is and what it does and it’s not treated as a magic bullet any more.
Mainly what seems to have changed is that steroids and TRT have exploded in popularity, and a scary number of under 18s are doing it.
Apart from that I couldn’t tell you, it’s all happening on Insta and TikTok now and I don’t participate.
Last time I checked what’s available on my grocery store shelf, the whey protein was still the cheapest by unit.
Where I live grocery stores are a terrible example, all the plant proteins are jacked up in price with marketing about how it’s organic and vegan and will cure cancer yada yada. And then the wheys they sell are blends with low actual protein content and/or poor aminos.
I buy my protein from a bulk supplements supplier, and soy is 75% of the cost of the cheapest whey, gram for gram of actual protein content.
I get my protein from Canadian protein dot com. The vegan protein is the same price as the whey concentrate and a little cheaper than the whey isolate.
I’ve never gotten it before mostly because I’m a creature of habit but might get some to try the next time I order because the dairy has not been sitting well with my stomach lately.
It appears to be mostly pea, brown rice and hemp.
I don’t know if this is a problem specific to Canadian Protein’s vegan protein, but the one time I tried it, it had the kind of grittiness that sent me into a coughing fit on each sip. Completely undrinkable. It also had this awful flavour evocative of wet cardboard, which they assured me was normal.
I’ve had other kinds in the past. They’ve ranged from really gross stevia taste to what I would describe as pancake batter.
Protein powders have always been so hit and miss though im not sure it’s related to them being vegan.
That’s fine.
I’m a 40 year-old man and I’ll still post up next to a group of these Gen-Z pansies and put up 300 pounds on the bench with my gnarled, old man physique.
Oh I know right bro, right? Bro?
Oh my god, everyone look at how tough this tough guy is!
How to tell someone you’re jealous without saying it out loud. Cheers, friend.
Jealous of what exactly? Lol. Edit: Hahaha, holy fuck guys, read this guy’s bio if you want a good laugh.
My bad dude, I thought you were serious. Poes law in action.
It does have some protoestrogens but to me that is a positive because I want to look fem. Most men have low estrogen and it makes them uglier and psychotic. The only time estrogen really feminizes you beyond giving you a better body shape and slightly healthier skin and stuff, is when you are taking a high amount of it.
Most men have too low of estrogen and this causes mental issues, depression, it gives them a lot of fat around their stomach while being lanky everywhere else. It causes all kinds of weird little issues.
Perhaps you mean phytoestrogen? Another commenter suggested that the applicable phytoestrogen found in soy may actually be protective against excess estrogen.
Idk I’m not a scientist
I get that. But you are making a number of statements/claims about the effects of estrogen on men, so at the very least it would help your credibility to get the word right. Hell, when I tried Googling “protoestrogen”, the Google AI said it wasn’t a word in any kind of normal use but was in a 1998 paper about the possible origins of estrogen.
Yeah sorry
Shit man, I think I need to hop on this soy boy train myself!
It’s fitting too because I’ve been taking in a little extra protein and putting on some muscle for the past few months due to some hobby stuff that led to construction projects, lol.
Yeah don’t fear the estrogen. Most men could use a bit more of it.
Amino acids are amino acids. Some are harder to get from plants than others.
I wish more people understood that EVERYTHING is chemistry.
And all of chemistry is just physics.
What about consciousness?
Is self awareness of information processing and filtering.
Truly the strangest epiphenomenon we’re all aware of
Or is it an epiphenomenon… No one can tell IMO.
You’re certainly not wrong! To me, it seems that consciousness is just what it is to be the kind of machines that we are, and also why sentience/consciousness is so impossible for the sort of synthetic 'AI’s we have that currently exist. But how could we ever really tell? Hard to know what evidence would ever be convincing either way!
Exactly!
Even love?
Of course! Even love! Just mix a dash of dopamine, a sprinkle of serotonin, a shot of oxytocin, and a hint of norepinephrine. Shake well in a nervous system, serve warm, and call it love!
Would you like a side of pheromones with that?
No, watt is love, so love is energy over time, not chemistry.
No, Shrek is love, Shrek is life.
Especially group sex
with 44 men, so an orgy.
That’s gay.
Gay chemistry!
Homosexual alchemy
Well, except for nuclear physics…
OK that does not mean that much though because the sample group is way too small to draw some real hard science out of it.
Saying that as a plant protein lover.
What? The sample group is not way too small lol. It is fine.
On top of that, there are already many other such studies on gym goers, comparing whey with vegan options, such as pea and soy protein. Those studies show that vegan options are as good as whey.
You can’t measure anything with a high level of confidence with 40 people. Typical health studies have hundreds to thousands of participants. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10000262/
There was no control group doing the workouts without protein supplements?
There are already plenty of studies comparing results as a function of protein quantity.
You would still want it as a baseline comparison for the experimental groups.
What would you gain from that? We care about the difference between two interventions. We’re not looking to determine whether an intervention has an effect or not.
Well the plant guys
So when presented with overwhelming evidence to the contrary, instead of changing your worldview you just reject reality? Most people grow out of that by age 3, but you do you.
These science dudes just want the tasty meats for themselfs
They are getting 9x times the lead according to a recent study… Which is horrifying. Not sure why it needs to have lead at all.
Plants have lead. So do animals, though apparently they can filter it a bit better.
But like we don’t have the ability to filter it or purify it? I mean product before consumption, not in our bodies.
I’m assuming companies just skip it either out of a lack of knowledge, or to save money. I’m basing this on the fact that some brands have less lead than others. But this is just me making an assumption.
Complete tangent, but I am always curious who downvotes these threads? Like there isn’t even anything controversial, did we piss off a supplement manufacturer or something?
I bet the lead count in their system changed.
Oh yeah, I forgot about this. It’s going to be tough to do anything about this with the current administration in office.
Also there’s arsenic is lots of brown rice. I think the stuff from California or India is pretty safe.
Lead arsenate was a very common pesticides for decades.
you know…we can look back and make fun of the romans for using lead water pipes even though they knew lead caused all sorts of health problems.
then…to this day not only do we still have lead water pipes, we decided to spray it on all of our food.
it’s a wonder we survived as a species at all tbh
Wow! That’s awful. Funny how DDT was seen as an “improvement.”
There’s no reason to panic if you’ve been using any of the products we tested, or if you take protein supplements generally. Many of these powders are fine to have occasionally…
I found this quote hilarious, I don’t know anyone who takes protein powder occasionally. They are either taking it mosts days out of the week or not at all in my experience.
I am one of that group. I only take it if I went to the gym and have a surplus in my daily calories. Doesn’t happen more frequently than once per week. Overdoing protein supplements can mess up your body, too.
Plants in general can contain more lead from soil whereas animals will filter it out before you consume their flesh, but the amounts they found were still well below what is recommended for other plant products such as fruit juice. After looking into it when I saw that study it kinda sucks how much lead is still in a lot of things. I’d be curious to see a bigger study comparing the lead found in people that use the plant-based powder or are vegetarian versus meat-eaters.
Wait till you learn what happens when you eat animals
Fairly certain it’s not lead poisoning
It’s shorter life, cardiac disease, and cancer.
Don’t forget diabetes.
That is if you eat big animals regularly instead of smaller ones.
Vegans simply ignore the fact that humans are omnivores. One needs enough physical activity as well to reduce the risks for everything that you mentioned.
I know people who ate a lot of meat and did not workout and died early. I know people who are vegetarians who didn’t workout and died early as well. In both cases one might die earlier than the other. What matters is a balanced diet, physical activity and the rest of your lifestyle including sleep, sex life, stress and social life as well.
You’re exposed to far more lead and other heavy metals living near a road than with this. So no, not a measurable amount.
Reposting my comment from another thread about this so people stop spreading this bullshit around:
I have a Garden of Life powder so I did a little digging and the powder I have and the Garden of Life powder tested in this report are both NSF certified. I trust NSF way more than I trust CR when it comes to contaminant levels, NSF is trusted by multiple countries for their public health standards. Also the “level of concern” used by CR is not the max level of safe consumption, it’s the minimum level to trigger a Prop 65 warning. Some agencies use 8.8 ug, the NSF used 10 ug, which are about ~15-20 times the 0.5 ug used by CR. This is also from one round of testing, NSF does yearly audits and re-tests products regularly to keep their NSF certification.
https://www.nsf.org/nutrition-wellness/product-and-ingredient-certification
That being said, it is healthier to get your protein from whole foods than from powders and most people wildly overestimate how much protein they actually need.
most people wildly overestimate how much protein they actually need.
Amen to that. It’s hilarious to watch the protein craze in action. I thought it might gradually die down decades ago, due to being able to find reliable information very easily. Instead it’s gotten remarkably worse over time.
Might want to look into the levels of lead in their blood.
I noticed this recently after looking at a circulating post “protein powder high led” or something.
The plant based ones seemed to always have higher amounts of led, is that a thing?
There is lead in the dirt that is taken up by the plants. This lead then gets into the digestive system of the animal from which the protein will be derived. This causes lead to be present in animal based protein supplements.
However, a significantly smaller amount will pass from the plant to the animal than from the dirt to the plant. As such, plant based protein powders will contain a higher concentration of lead unless it is removed at some point during the process, as the plants just have more lead in them than the animals.
I am slightly surprised that both groups lost a similar amount of fat.
Oh, right, supplements. So similar amount of fat as well. Well, kind of an obvious result and doesn’t really say a whole lot about the differences between plant- and protein-based diets.
There is a very large contingent of people who believe animal protein is superior to plant protein in every way, shape, or form. So this result isn’t obvious to them.
Such people unfortunately won’t be reading science papers or understanding their significance.
Apparently the animal protein has less lead.
it also depends on the exercise and your goals. they aren’t equivalent.
I am a distance cyclist. animal protein works better for recovery for me than plant protein. I have tried both.
I am not trying to build muscle. I am trying to recover from endurance efforts. whey protein cuts my recovery time down by almost a full day vs plant protein.
I’m afraid you replied to the wrong comment, Comrade.
Depends. Price points can be vastly different. Plant based stuff is often novel pricing.
Thats because it is? 100g of chicken has around 21g of protein. To get the same amount of proteins from plant, you would need to consume around 1000g of plants(give or take). This is why people should be really be eating both. You know, to be healthy and shit.
The study is about grams of protein in a supplement, not grams of food eaten. This is the same thing as “What heavier: 1kg of steel or 1kg of wool?”
Also, you don’t need to eat 1000g of plants to get 21g of protein.
Peanuts have 26 grams of protein per 100g, that’s more than your example of chicken.Black pepper is about 10% protein by weight. So, if you want to be gross, that’s about 210g of black pepper.
26g of protein sure, but also 570 calories. Lean meats are hard to compete with, especially on a cut.
The person I was replying to didn’t mention calories, so I didn’t bring it up either. I was just trying to show that they were just talking out of their ass.
The article is also about protein powder, so we’re getting further and further from what this is even about.Extra-firm tofu competes with chicken breast for protein per calorie.
When talking about supplements, grams of protein in relation to grams of food is irrelevant.
gymbros are afraid of soybased products, eventhough there is very little if any phytoestrogen that affects them in a significant way.
they are more likely to get estrogen-like chemicals from thier plastic bottles and drinking water.
Study does not say anything about the diet of the subjects. This would make more sense if it was 22 vegan men with plant-protein supplement and 22 carnivore diet men with animal-protein supplement and a control of typical diet with no supplement.
There are a lot of upvotes here. Why would this make more sense?
Agreed, this is a dumb comment that has no relation to the study being done, only some study they imagined in their mind.
People love to second guess scientific studies like they’re set up by complete fucking morons with no review or oversight. Truly their 10 seconds of amateur brilliance is going to see the trivial flaw no one among the team of people doing this as their actual job noticed. If something sounds obviously wrong in a science article, the source of that wrongness is almost certainly either the author of the article or you.
The author changed the title and the original seems to be what a lot of these comments are rallying against:
Making a comment about a supposed scientific error from post title alone is even stupider.
This would make more sense if it was 22 vegan men with plant-protein supplement and 22 carnivore diet men with animal-protein supplement and a control of typical diet with no supple
I read the “this” as the study too. I think the “this” is referring to the title so the comment is explaining how the title is an overreach and describing what sort of study you would need to justify a title like whatever overreach was made.
I’m guessing though
I think “this” refers to the posts original title, which was updated after some pushback from comments so now the comment I was replying to is a bit out of place
Even better is if they controlled for total protein intake, since we know that to be an important factor in muscle growth.
Hard, since basically everything has protein in it
But one of them didn’t smell as bad as the other
which supplements has the highest lead though
Why is everyone talking about lead which isn’t really an issue, but cholesterol is killing people by the millions and absolute silence.
Lead literally makes people dumb lol
Not in the miniscule increase feom a vegan diet.
You are exposed to several times more living near a road.
That doesn’t mean it is safe. Just because a pond is filled with garbage doesn’t mean we are supposed to throw more garbage in it.
In fact there is no known medically safe levels of lead intake, as even little can cause harm. So adding more lead in your system — however minuscule it is — is harmful.
All the food safety agencies just give a blanket estimate range for safe levels for how much is tolerable for a human body based on practicality, not on medical basis.
There’s plenty of other factors that need to be considered. There will be significant differences in iron levels, b12, calcium, vitamin d, etc.
If you’re vegetarian/vegan, you absolutely need to monitor multiple other levels and take the appropriate supplements. Pretending otherwise is really dangerous.
The study itself makes none of the claims you’re rallying against.
It looks like the OP started with a title that was misleading and it has been corrected so now your post looks out of place.
You can get all of that just fine on a veg diet without artificial supplementation. Just eat a fucking vegetable dude.
Not b12. Vegans have to supplement with b12.
Mushrooms and nutritional yeast.
Please don’t spread misinformation. That’s a path to someone developing neurological disease.
What misinformation?
Vegan sources of vitamin B12 include fortified plant-based milks, fortified cereals, nutritional yeast, and certain types of algae, several types of mushrooms, most meat and dairy replacements are fortified with b12.
And a single energy drink contains 5x or more the daily dose of b12.
So you could buy a bunch of processed crap with vitamins in it and hope you get enough.
…Or you could just take the vitamins.
I recommended just taking vegan b12 every day. It’s a requirement and very small sacrifice to make for living a better life without having to consume animal parts
Plenty of swole guys are vegetarian. Not Vegan. The difference is vegetarians don’t tell everyone.
Studies show 92% of meat eaters are nutrient deficient in at least one vitamin or mineral.
The rate for vegans is 30%
Worry about yourself.
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Which one is cheaper?
Can’t speak for this specific blend sourcing they used in this study, but soy protein is usually cheaper in much of the world. It’s why most protein bars use soy protein isolate
How many people are having issues with lead?
Now how about cholesterol? Which only comes from animal products.
Hint: cholesterol kills millions of people every year.
Seems like you only care about something if it fits into your bias.
Was gonna comment this. More people need to know about this
Makes sense
Idk about protien, but vegan food is typically 30% cheaper than the standard American diet.
i doubt this is true.
The global and regional costs of healthy and sustainable dietary patterns: a modelling study
By Marco Springmann, PhD; Michael A Clark, PhD; Prof Mike Rayner, PhD; Peter Scarborough, PhD; Prof Patrick Webb, PhD
November 24, 2021
…Findings
Compared with the cost of current diets, the healthy and sustainable dietary patterns were, depending on the pattern, up to 22–34% lower in cost in upper-middle-income to high-income countries on average (when considering statistical means), but at least 18–29% more expensive in lower-middle-income to low-income countries. Reductions in food waste, a favourable socioeconomic development scenario, and a fuller cost accounting that included the diet-related costs of climate change and health care in the cost of diets increased the affordability of the dietary patterns in our future projections. When these measures were combined, the healthy and sustainable dietary patterns were up to 25–29% lower in cost in low-income to lower-middle-income countries, and up to 37% lower in cost on average, for the year 2050. Variants of vegetarian and vegan dietary patterns were generally most affordable, and pescatarian diets were least affordable.
…
In high-income and upper-middle-income countries, all dietary patterns, except for the high-veg pescatarian diets, were less expensive, with greatest cost reductions for the high-grain vegetarian and vegan diets (cost reductions of 22–34% across the two regions), followed by the high-veg vegetarian and vegan diets (17–27%), the flexitarian diets (12–14%), and the high-grain pescatarian diets (1–3% in each region). InSource: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(21)00251-5/fulltext
they do not explicitly include food from home production or differentiate subgroups within a population.
this also seriously considered poore-nemecek 2018 as a source uncritically.
and they assume everyone is paying full retail price for food, where most poor people actually receive some kind of subsidized or free food.
the model diet they used is not vegan, but flexitarian.
this is not very good evidence you’ve presented, so I still doubt the claim is true
Last time I looked into plant based. Like pea and rice protein. It was expensive af. Like double the price of whey per pound. Don’t know about soy pricing.
Both of those (pea and rice) are just starchy AF before processing. My best guess is that isolating pea/rice protein is a real bitch to pull off since most of it isn’t protein to begin with. Soy should be cheaper but that might be changing here real soon…
