This is a cool show. I can’t help but hate Carol, and I can’t figure out if the show is trying to make me hate her or if she really is supposed to be some kind of antihero. It’s interesting that we have very little information about what the lives of the other individuals were like before the joining. Carol is very petit bourgeois coded, clearly your archetypical western chauvinist. She’s basically monolingual, a fantasy slop mogul, deeply uncurious, self centered, and stubborn. She assumes that everyone else who is unjoined is of the same mind set, and the only other character aligned with her appears to be even more antisocial then she is.
It’s hard to say what this show is really about. There was that throw away line in the second or third episode where Carol says she is the “second greatest mass murder next to Stalin” and you could read this so many ways. Yet the show makes it very clear that the world Carol wants to return to is one full of harm and violence. That her resistance to this situation actively kills people
Hopefully this doesn’t turn into a show that doesn’t know how it ends and keeps running on a treadmill for several sessions.
Vince Gilligan has openly stated that they’re trying their damnedest to subvert almost every zombie apocalypse trope. The people within the Joining are all happy and explicitly have all their faculties and want to be a part of it (if only because the psychic glue commands them to). They’re eating people because corpses are just a shitload of calories to allow to go to waste when your behavioral imperatives prevent harvesting food. Carol’s slow downward spiral in episode 7 does a pretty good job getting across that just as the tagline says she is the most miserable person on Earth, and the least popular by far. There’s essentially only 14 other people on the planet now, and the one with 7.7 billion bodies has been avoiding her while another 11 shun her and the last one seems to be a bit unhinged and is absolutely shaping up to be some sort of villain.
I don’t know why people say this isn’t going anywhere. It’s a heavily character-focused story, much like everything else Gilligan’s made. The guy is good at doing slow burns. He’s proven it. I have enough patience and trust in the story to want to see where it’s going. Every revelation about the hive mind so far has been substantial and painted a deeper picture of the world. Christ’s sake I have severe ADHD and I feel like so many people have media takes stemming from a miniscule attention span. Maybe it also helps that I spent years nitpicking absolutely every piece of media and ruining it for myself and now try to find the unique parts that shine through all the noise. I love this show so far. It’s fucking hilarious. It’s an intriguing premise. And I actually like watching Carol be miserable and slowly realizing she’s doing it to herself by being a raging bitch and refusing to see any other perspectives at all. And it makes it very easy to get into her headspace. She sees that the world has essentially ended and nobody else is concerned. Nobody else seems to understand it, as far as she can tell, but maybe it’s because her only real human connection died in the Joining and she’s extremely alienated by the Hive using her dead wife’s memories to try and butter her up while she’s still in absolute shock from both the Joining and her sudden loss and grief and total absence of anyone to share it with. Everyone else has family members who are still alive and are now suddenly nicer, smarter, and more capable than they’ve ever been. Diabate comes across as a man who probably had absolutely nothing before and now feels like he gets to play in Creative Mode.
I think what the show is about is just how these 13 individuals are dealing with an irreversible apocalypse. I don’t think it’s a certainty that Carol will reverse the Joining; this could be a Childhood’s End situation. I want to see where it goes.
Hopefully this doesn’t turn into a show that doesn’t know how it ends and keeps running on a treadmill for several sessions.
It is literally doing that in its first season
I love how Vince made a tv show based on the premise my friend Rhea is cool and talented and I’m doing this so she can shine.
There have been a lot of comments calling the Mauritanian dude aremoved, an understandable read to be sure. But I’m surprised I haven’t seen any comments reading it as Diabate being groomed by a super intelligence.
If a person orders someone without free will to have sex with them and the “someone” complies, the person being groomed is not the guy giving the orders.
We dont know how the hive works currently so its assumptions on assumptions either way. Its interesting that individualism is so ingrained that the leading assumption is that there is a true self being repressed by being joined rather than that a transformation occurred.
Even if a transformation occurred, they have been shown to not be able to refuse a request even at the risk of harm to bodies which constitute part of the hivemind. Their preference was clearly not to give Carol a nuke, but they would if asked.
After the first two episodes I suspected that it was one big indulgence for Vince Gilligan to film whatever he wanted, however he wanted, and after finishing episode seven I’m now convinced of it
He’s riding the wave of Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, it’s clear that Apple told him he could do whatever he wanted and this is the result. I think he lacks the good politics to make an interesting sci fi show
I think he lacks the good politics to make an interesting sci fi show
I’m concerned about this as well. While filmed beautifully, and an intriguing premise, it’s not prompting ethical dilemmas. More a show about loneliness and individualism.
HDP didn’t surprise me but the no picking fruit absolutely did. It felt like one of those moves where the ‘bad guys’ in a show are too reasonable/radical so the writers have them do something awful so the audience can’t side with them.
Yeah it’s not consistent either I feel. Why did they dig the grave of they can’t harm any living thing? Wouldn’t that have harmed the grass? The line has to be drawn some where. Do single celled organisms count as “living things”? Its not even an awful thing theyre doing, it’s an incredibly silly thing. They won’t even build robots to farm for them because that’s harm by proxy. It reads a lot more like “This is the logical terminating point of your silly kumbaya ideology and why it ultimately fails”
The one that gets me is the claim that they can’t infect the survivors because that would require the consent of the survivors.
What do you mean?!
Hundreds of millions of people died without ever being asked if they wanted this!They can’t do harm I think is the hitch. That means operations that cause pain and require some form of recovery. Their biological imperative allows them to infect people in harmless ways. Like kissing.
Dying is a harm. It’s one of the ultimate harms.
Also the first human infection was done by bite. Although the mice based hivemind may not have the ability to do ethical reasoning.Edit:But also if this is the case, then the suicidal empathy with all living things exhibited by the woke mind virus is an emergent property of human ethical reasoning. Which throws the idea that it is a bioweapon for a loop.
Sure but that was a rat brain with rat memories. I think it will reveal that the rules stem from human thought. They admit they didn’t know people would die. We also know that they cannot lie but they can lie by omission.
The whole do no harm policy is really flimsy as plot device. It’s either part of the virus, which doesn’t make sense based on your point, or it’s a manifestation of the joining stemming from human thinking, which is also silly since humans have been eating plants for all of time.
But for the remaining, they’d need stem cells which are harvested via a painful procedure, that’s the consent.
People who were currently operating heavy machinery were infected and went into seizures. We see people fall down, we see people die. None of these people consented.
Right, the in universe explanation is the spread was done initially quietly and with no harm. Then they were quickly forced to spread to everyone which unfortunately caused harm.
I agree it’s not great logic, but their reasoning is they require consent for direct harm, which includes harvesting stem cells.
The bigger thing for me is the food production. Picking an orange or plucking potatoes from the ground does not do harm because those things do not have central nervous systems.
Right, the in universe explanation is the spread was done initially quietly and with no harm. Then they were quickly forced to spread to everyone which unfortunately caused harm.
But it isn’t. The issue explicitly isnt that this was an emergency requiring extenuating circumstances, or it would equally apply both to the infection of the survivors and their own food situation. They are all going to die and they have a biological imperative to spread that apply equally now as it did then.
The bigger thing for me is the food production. Picking an orange or plucking potatoes from the ground does not do harm because those things do not have central nervous systems.
There is a school of thought/religion called jainism, and I feel like their views on the value of life are pretty relevant to this discussion.
It’s even more silly when you realize the writers didn’t even need to go this route to provoke this conflict. There’s so many pesticides used in our food production, for example, that kill millions of insects and result in lost biodiversity. Retiring them all at once could very feasibly result in famine via pestilence.
But instead they went for “no can pick apple :(”. This is just plain bad writing. Maybe that problem was too “solvable”?
Antibiotics are also a thing. Do we consider bacteria in this equation of life and death? Probably had to kill millions of bacteria to keep Zosia alive so, unless the bacteria has its own hivemind ability to clear out of its own volition (probably also resulting in its own die-off by declining access to resources. Huh… see, that would actually be an interesting analogy!!), I’m going to guess the answer is no. But plants? We couldn’t pull a leaf from a branch to save our lives!
The more I sit with this the more I realize that so much is “morally” off limits and/or rendered null-and-void by the virus that it’s questionable what the hivemind is even ultimately working towards besides spreading the virus and maybe conservation of the planet itself? Indeterminable joy? What are the other 7 billion plurbs even doing all day when they’re not catering to the 12 survivors’ every demand?
I demand world building !! Writing your main character as an incurious anti-social american chauvinist does not excuse you from world building !!
I read that Bince has at least 4 seasons worth of content prepared for the show, so who knows where this is going.
4 seasons worth of content prepared for the show
At this pace it’s one season’s worth of content stretched into four
I want to have faith in Bince. Like he’s laying the groundwork for something. But, only time will tell I guess.
Yep. I think the pace feels indulgent, for now, rather than padding. I’m enjoying it for the most part, despite that
I took some quotes from vince on the show:
“I just want people to get along. First and foremost, it’s just a TV show. No TV show is going to cure cancer, so to speak,” the Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul creator told Decider over Zoom. “I want people to be along for the ride. Enjoy it. Be engaged by Carol. And that’s easy, because Rhea is just magnificent. And she just such a wonderful job. I want people to enjoy the show just like any other TV show. At the end of the day, that’s all I really hope for. But, this is so grandiose to say it, but the country is so divided…”
“As a writer, speaking to a room full of writers, I have a proposal; it certainly won’t fix everything, but I think it’s a start. I say we write more good guys. For decades we made the villains too sexy [and] viewers everywhere, all around the world, pay attention. They say, ‘Here’s this badass, I want to be that cool.’ When that happens, fictional bad guys stop being the precautionary tales they were intended to be. God help us, they’ve become aspirational.”
“The country is so divided. The world — I can’t speak for the rest of the world, I’ll speak for the United States — but it feels like the precipice of civil war. There’s nothing funny at all about that. And I don’t believe for a minute that either side, no matter what your personal beliefs are, I don’t believe that either side wants it this way,” Gilligan told Decider. “Nobody of good will wants things to be the way they are right now. And I’m not talking politics. I’m talking about people being at each other’s throats. I’d like this show — as grandiose as it is to say — my lottery win version of this would be that people watch this thing and they say, ‘Maybe there’s a better way.’ It’d be fun for me. It’d be more than fun. It’d be deeply satisfying.”
“I don’t know if it ought to be like it it in Pluribus either, because then we potentially lose all our individuality. There’s reasons you don’t want it to be like the world of Pluribus, but is there somewhere in the middle between the two?” Gilligan asked.
What do y’all think?
It is amazing how basically whenever any showrunner or film maker is invited to explain their vision, they always sound like the most vapid people ever.
The hivemind can’t even pick fruit because of their no harm policy. They’re gonna starve out in some years. I’m wondering if this was the plan all along of whoever sent them there to wipe out species of a planet because of zany rules and take the remains.
No they sent themselves. That’s what the ham radio guy discovered but doesn’t know it yet. They have a biological imperative to spread, and so they built a device on the last planet they infected to broadcast their genome sequence in hopes that they ultimately continue to spread and exist somewhere else.
The big reveal will likely be that this virus was engineered by advanced space communists who “never stopped to ask of they should”. Engineered with biological rules that “sound good on paper but fail in practice”
The antihero will have to break their biological programing to restore their individualism. In doing so she creates a population that knows everything about everyone and everything but can act and work independently as individuals. Because everyone knows everyone and everything from everyone’s perspective, they finally have true empathy for everyone. She’ll still be left in isolation, only knowing what she knows and never having this experience herself, but her stubbornness and commitment to individuality will have created world harmony or some shit. She will live out her life with her companion on the new global earth commune.
sounds about right
Probably another intergalactic landlord.
:frieza-shining:
my take on it was that the virus likes to spread itself, so some alien race that had been infected were observing humans for some years and decided that in at least 1200 years humans will develop the technology required and decided to send the virus. if they involve aliens in the show it’ll be ruined imo so best to leave it unexplained.
I’m wondering if this was the plan all along of whoever sent them there to wipe out species of a planet because of zany rules and take the remains.
Doesn’t make sense to me. If you can engineer a magic hivemind virus and communicate it over interstellar distances, you can probably find a more straightforward way to kill everyone with the same method. If that’s the ploy then the writers are dullards and/or don’t respect the audience (either are possible).
Assuming there’s more going on than a Rube-Goldberg genocide attempt, it could be that humans are being prepared to join a greater galactic hivemind ahead of the aliens showing up in-person. Either that or humans are being tested somehow, and that it’s not an accident that a tiny handful of people ended up not joining. Worst case would be some sort of Lost situation where there’s no rational explanation and we just get to be taken for a ride by the writers before they spoonfeed us the answer at the end.
I’m open to giving them the benefit of the doubt, but it would be really, really easy to fumble this thing. If they do, I’m going back to my “wait until the season finishes before watching” policy.
I think it’s more like a Genestealer cult. The hivemind virus is to prepare potentially inhabitable planets for future colonization. The food thing lowers the existing population to sustainable levels which also makes handover easier and provides the new overlords with an obedient slave population on arrival.
That makes enough sense at a glance. Take over an entire planet, population included, without firing a shot or encountering any form of resistance. You even get the benefit of the remaining population maintaining potentially valuable infrastructure and knowledge along the way.
It does feel like there’s more than that going on, imo, but there’s too little information to say what that might be. We’re getting precious few hints considering we’re almost at the end of the season, hopefully the next couple episodes pick up the pace.
We’re getting precious few hints considering we’re almost at the end of the season, hopefully the next couple episodes pick up the pace.
This is going to stretch for multiple seasons lol. We are just at Day 48 right now and no one is equipped to take on the hivemind.
I guess that the hivemind will successfully convert one of the immune ones and it’ll start a panic among remaining survivors.
For sure we’re not at the end-end, I just mean that for this season to land at all there’s going to need to be something other than two characters having an elaborate meal together and then remarking on how weird all this is. I like the idea of converting one of the other survivors, that would definitely add some spice to what’s going on.
as soon as they said that shit it’s like, if it wasn’t already obvious this was still a weapon it should be obvious now
They caused the biggest mass deaths in human history, them getting upset by carol who has understable human reaction caused millions of deaths. I mean shit they’re programmed to be docile and starve to death
Also I’m calling the next ‘reveal’ will be that they can’t (won’t?) breed/reproduce sexually
But the dude in Vegas is having sex constantly? Or is the reveal going to be that he’s actually never had sex with them. They need his stem cells to infect him, can’t you get that from many sources, not just bone marrow?
Seems unlikely to me considering how much of a point they make about their biological imperative.
Cw discussion of childbirth
spoiler
They can have intercourse but I am predicting that with where the plot is going that they will not have it amongst the hive and cannot or will not carry to term.
That last part is very grim and would be more shocking then eating people I think. I think they would carry it to term but they won’t reproduce because of the fact that they are starving. That fits right into their no harm policy.
it’s either that carol is the only one blind to the situation because of her negative qualities, or that carol is the only one aware of how fucked up it is despite her negative qualities, but keeps failing because of them.
it would be cool if it was the first, but also that would mean the show would be sort of pro-hivemind or at least consider it as another sentient being instead of being characterized as some sort of invasive horde, which would be almost incredibly rare amongst media that features hiveminds.
i fear like the show might pull a twist where the hive has done/is doing something horrifying that would make them completely evil,
spoiler
or that HDP is supposed to be the twist and we should be extremely horrified that the others are drinking human corpses, which although disgusting is not really that shocking.
it’s an interesting show, but it could easily affirm western chauvinism instead of being critical of it. episode 7 really didn’t change anything so im still waiting to see which direction will the show choose.
how far does it go in regards to medicine? With bacteria especially? Tuberculosis would fuck up even more people. Simple things like pneumonia would be problematic. Parasites? So many things unchecked is no good. Just having a clean supply of water means killing a ton of germs/bacteria. agriculture a lot of areas use antibiotics and they already thinned out on food. Not to mention pests that could decimate entire crop. And the humans they consume? What of the bacteria in em? Gut microbiomes take time to die out. What’s really good
I would assume interference with microbial life is an exception to the rule otherwise they’d just let all their gut flora consume them from the inside out and let people die of infections, something they clearly didn’t allow in Zosia’s case.
We’ll see given that they’re going to need to treat the infection of the Paraguyan guy.
Incidentally his “Nothing on this planet is yours. Nothing. There is nothing you can give me, because everything you have is stolen” line is the only banger line of this show so far.That was a bar when I thought of it. But yeah but they already likely did that with zosia after the explosion. Tetanus prophylaxis etc.
For my own sake I started to imagine the clock going into weeks instead of days because it’s dosen’t make sense that had only passed 10 days (?) to episode 6.
